Climate Conversations S3E3: Learning in Community with Mothers Out Front
What does "we're all in this together" really mean? In this episode we're inspired by Mothers Out Front whose work helps answer that question by examples of learning in community, from and with each other. Give a listen to how they're building on the human instincts that glue communities together: bring friends; tell stories, and connect around the shared concern for our kids and future generations. Maybe you'll be inspired too!
[00:00:00] Rajesh Kasturirangen: This is Climate Conversations by Climate X.
Curt Newton: Hello. I'm Curt Newton, and I'm joined here by my colleague, Dave Damm-Luhr.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Hey Curt. Glad to be with you today.
Curt Newton: I think we're putting on our community activist hats today, and talking about how it's been going. Certainly I see in the groups I'm in people really keyed up on figuring out actions to do. Taking action. Do you find that to be the case?
Dave Damm-Luhr: Oh, absolutely. Let's face it, the world's on fire. We need to be doing something pronto.
Curt Newton: I feel your urgency.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Absolutely. But there's a problem with that that I find in my gut. I want to be doing stuff so I can go to bed and feel like, "Yeah. I pushed the ball forward in some little bitty way". But often there's something that's missing in terms of, "Who else is in the room with me? Where are they coming from? What do they [00:01:00] have to offer?". You know what I mean?
Curt Newton: Absolutely. Yeah. Thinking about the people in the room, what are we doing to have fun, you know? This is urgent stuff and it can be really serious. But I think the more connected we could be with the people we're working with, the more effective, the more fun it could be. I think that takes us in a good place.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Absolutely. I mean I feel that way. When I'm more connected to people I'm more likely to show up. I think everybody benefits, so I'm more likely to take those actions and push the ball forward on multiple fronts.
Curt Newton: Yeah. Fortunately we're hardly the only people who've had this feeling about the value of connection, and how its lack can really get in the way of making progress.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Right. In this episode we're going to meet a climate advocacy group for whom the value of connection is in their DNA. A core identity.
Curt Newton: Yeah. We're going to hear about how their approach appeals to hearts, builds community, and really energizes its members to bring about meaningful change.
Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:02:00] While fostering learning in all directions in service of its mission and vision.
Vanessa Rule: The people that we work with, they call themselves unsuspecting activists, right? Mothers who have never done any kind of political activism or organizing. Who, it turns out many of them have felt alone and isolated and paralyzed by the sense of overwhelm.
Dave Damm-Luhr: We're talking about a group called Mothers Out Front. It's made primarily up of mothers who want to see bold action around climate change. You just heard Vanessa Rule, who's the co-founder of Mothers Out Front, and their learning and expansion director. She's been organizing for climate action initiatives for over 11 years.
Curt Newton: Now we had another Mothers Out Front member from Cambridge, Mass, Zeyneb Magavi, on our podcast last season. That episode was really great, and made us want to learn more. How do they do it? What's the secret? What could other groups learn from their [00:03:00] example? Here's Vanessa again.
Vanessa Rule: First question was, is it even possible to engage mom on this issue? I was telling you earlier that I didn't come to doing this work as a mother, even though my kids were three and six when I started. Because within my group of friends, of mothers, it was a really unpopular topic. It was the downer conversation. Nobody wanted to touch that thing, and so I was not sure when Kelsey showed up and -
Dave Damm-Luhr: Kelsey's the other Mothers Out Front co-founder.
Vanessa Rule: You know, I'm a mother. The reason I'm doing this is because I think about my children, and there must be other mothers out there. The question is, how are people going to respond and how do we get them to step away from their incredibly busy lives to get involved? It's proven, I mean it feels like we've tapped into this untapped gold mine. It's about giving people a viable pathway for action, and then connecting them to each other. Then [00:04:00] they learn together. A huge part of our learning approach is to create conditions for learning.
Dave Damm-Luhr: There you have it. Connecting to each other, learning together.
Curt Newton: This isn't just the opinion of the woman who co-founded this organization. We also talked to a newer member from San Jose, California.
Stacy Levy: My name is Stacy Levy. I'm a mom of three boys. A friend and I started the South Bay Mothers Out Front team in November, 2016, because we wanted to find a way to make a difference for our kids, and help other moms be able to do the same thing. We actually had our first house party the weekend after the November 2016 election.
Curt Newton: House parties serve as the main meeting spaces for Mothers Out Front groups. We'll talk more about that in just a minute.
Stacy Levy: It had been planned for a while. We didn't think it was going to go the way that it went, so we were all still in a bit of shock. But it was so encouraging to have this group of women come together and be able to talk about, "What can we do?". It was kind of something that was [00:05:00] building up, and then all of a sudden you realize, "We can do something".
With the Mothers Out Front model it was really kind of easy to just plug in and start having house parties, and start inviting people, and form a group that would take action. It was empowering.
Curt Newton: All right. Let's go back for a moment to those house parties. There's a bit more involved than drinks and snacks and relaxed conversation, yeah?
Dave Damm-Luhr: Right. The house parties serve as places where Mothers Out Front groups plan, educate, and grow. They aren't about gathering with friends and neighbors just to have fun. These meetings are intentional, and organized to ensure that they're doing climate action work that fits both them and their local issues. Here's Stacy again.
Stacy Levy: Once everyone is gathered, we sit in a circle and give an overview of what we're going to do. There's usually one or two facilitators who facilitate the meeting. It's a combination of [00:06:00] education about the urgency of climate change, and also conversation with, "What brought you here? Why does this matter to you?". Everyone's voice is heard in the circle.
We go over not only the urgency of climate change, but also how important our voices as mothers or grandmothers is to this movement. How it's a new constituency that can't be written off as left wing crazy activists. We're moms. We just want to protect our kids' future. We also talk about how important it is to build political will. That the technology is there, is just a matter of building the political will and getting our voices heard. We talk about how we do that, usually starting on a local level and building relationships with decision makers.
We also talk about how mothers throughout the country have been effective in making their voices heard. Both with climate change and with other initiatives.
Curt Newton: I love how all of this [00:07:00] happens by design. Facilitators are trained to guide the group together, and they're trained to pass on organizing skills that bring these mothers' important stories out into the world.
Vanessa Rule: It's about developing leadership in others. I'm drawing, a lot of what I'm sharing here is actually drawn from the work of Marshall Ganz at the Harvard Kennedy School, who has looked at the best practices in organizing history and developed his own framework, and codified it, and now teaches a class. But he defines leadership as enabling others to take action in the face of uncertainty.
Organizing is about making the implicit explicit. That's a lot of what we do in terms of learning. It's like, all this stuff is something that human beings do I think naturally. But becoming very aware of how you use those approaches explicitly and being strategic about it is what we do.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Continuous learning and training, education and mentorship, all in community, are key parts [00:08:00] of the Mothers Out Front model. One that's been high value to many groups, because it's easy to replicate and apply to locally meaningful climate issues. Helped by people in other places that are a step or two ahead.
Vanessa Rule: Everything we do involves a reflective piece. Every Mothers Out Front meeting ends with what we call pluses, deltas, and key learnings. What went well about this meeting? What would you change to make it better next time? What's one thing you learned? That's every meeting all the way to a major action. There's this constant idea that we're figuring this out together. That there isn't a tried and true path.
Stacy Levy: Part of this Mothers Out Front model that's so helpful is having a mentor, and someone who can coach our team or individual members at times when they're facing something new. It's like before we met with council members, we had some support about how to do that. They actually arranged a training, and they invited other teams to join it as well, so that other teams were [00:09:00] able to benefit from that at a time when we were needing it in that moment. There's a lot of support, and getting teams to step up to the next level.
Vanessa Rule: A big part of how we encourage learning is through the process of coaching. That's a scary word for some people, but there's always somebody who, we talk about coaching as being the fish out of the fish bowl. You don't know you're in water if you're in water. Having that sort of person asking you questions to get you to sort of connect the dots is a really important part of the process. That connects back to the leadership development.
Dave Damm-Luhr: These trainings lead to a rapidly expanding crew stepping up to give powerful speeches at rallies, reach out to other local groups to build coalitions, negotiate with political and industry leaders, and create brand new chapters around the country.
Curt Newton: Yeah. I've had the pleasure to be at some of those rallies with Mothers Out Front members. It's real. Let's dig into just how powerful and how effective these folks can be.
Vanessa Rule: We know what we need to do to address the climate crisis. [00:10:00] What we don't have is political will. In order to do that we need to move decision makers and we need to build political power. The scale at which you do that is very local, because it depends on people's ability to build relationships with each other, to experience agency together, so they need to be able to find things that they can actually get results on. They need to learn to organize, and that takes a lot of leadership development. It takes a lot of learning.
Dave Damm-Luhr: How do you lobby your legislature?
Vanessa Rule: Well you need to be really clear. You need to have an ask. A lot of the time they don't know anything about the issue. Shifting from, these people again are the power holders and the experts, to realizing they actually need you. The number of legislators and municipal officials who have said to us, "We've been waiting for you. We've been wanting to do this but we were not empowered to, literally". There's no way they can know all the things they need to know to know what to do.
We're not necessarily the experts. But it really helps for them to be able to turn [00:11:00] during a hearing to the hundred mothers that have packed the room to say, "You know, it's not me that's pushing this. It's them".
Curt Newton: "The mothers made me do it".
Vanessa Rule: They did, right. Listen to your mother.
Dave Damm-Luhr: What politician can be against mothers, right?
Curt Newton: But let's be clear. The roots of Mothers Out Front effectiveness goes way beyond just showing up with their motherhood identity. They're engaging these would be opponents around shared values and dialog. They're shifting relationships from what they call a power over basis toward the more uplifting and connected power with.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Maybe some listeners remember our conversation last season with Zeyneb Magavi about their breakthrough work with natural gas utilities. That was a great example of developing power with.
Zeyneb Magavi: Three moms, Audrey, myself, and another, we walked into Eversource headquarters and sat down in a conference room with the president of Eversource Gas, and two other executives. We didn't know what was going to happen at that point. [00:12:00] We started by telling them, by doing the Mothers Out Front thing and telling them stories of our kids.
Curt Newton: They had children too.
Zeyneb Magavi: Yes. In fact, Bill Akley told us about his kids right back. We bonded around that common ground. That we all care for our kids' future. If there's something we can do and we can make it a win win, let's do it. They agreed by the end of, we proposed our pilot study to research and figure out how to find those largest leaks, try it in Cambridge, and they said yes. Then Columbia Gas said yes. They were amazing. We got the three largest utilities in Massachusetts to join us in this pilot study. National Grade, Columbia Gas, and Eversource Gas. That covers 95 percent of the gas customers.
You know, there were moments, actually the guy I was speaking of, the president of Eversource Gas. Long long after he said, "You know, that first meeting, I was asked if we needed security guards and lawyers". [00:13:00] When we got to the negotiation of how to figure out the plan for cutting the methane once we had all the data, we did have a sit down discussion on our side of, "Okay. Should we actually get some real negotiators instead of us?". We decided no. We'd built the relationships and we trusted in them. It wasn't easy, but we actually did it just between the group that had been working all along.
Curt Newton: That was two and a half years ago. Since then, stronger rules about gas leaks was one of the few bits of climate and energy legislation that the Massachusetts legislature passed at the end of their 2018 session, just completed this past July. We don't know for sure, but I have to think that the campaign's persistent and productive engagement with the utilities was really part of the recipe for their success. Anyway.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Let's return to the concept of learning that develops leadership, empowering the unlikely [00:14:00] activist as Vanessa said, in us all. Modeling effective behaviors. Ample encouragement. Demystifying the power of expertise. All the kinds of things that support members learning by doing. We heard many stories of people learning to step up to the mic, start speaking up, and speaking out.
Curt Newton: Yeah. Here Vanessa's going to tell us about one newish member of Mothers Out Front taking an important step, from simply opening her home for a house party where someone else did the talking, to speaking and facilitating the conversation at the house parties herself. Guess what? It didn't end there.
Vanessa Rule: What we were teaching her was how to do the talking, and sort of being in front of the room. She said that she was terrified, but her instinct was just to say yes. That's been her experience over and over and over again. That the organizer would come to her and say, "Would you speak at this rally? Would you [00:15:00] lead a team? Would you do this?". It's, "Just keep saying yes", and taking those baby steps. Realizing that there are other mothers who have done this, and that you don't need to be an expert. All you need to do is be a mom. Not that all you need to do is be a mom. But there's a lot that comes with that. It's just about putting one step in front of the other, and just following in other people's tracks.
She's now coaching moms in California and other parts of the country. One of the things she says to them is, "I'm just one step ahead of you". Just that connection and that reassurance. A lot of people just need courage. They know what to do once they believe they can do it. But it's shifting from, again that place of powerlessness and, "Other people have the answers. There are experts out there", to realizing that we're the leaders we've been waiting for.
Curt Newton: "I'm just one step ahead of you". Gives me chills. That's a brilliant way to keep connected as [00:16:00] expertise develops and gets shared around. It really pulls you in.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Here's Stacy's experience with learning to speak out.
Stacy Levy: I really don't like public speaking at all. For me personally, finding that courage to first of all go up there and make a couple statements a couple different times, it's definitely stretched me. But I did it and I survived, and I felt really good afterwards. Then during that campaign there was the People's Climate March in San Jose. We had an opportunity to talk about what we were doing, out Mothers Out Front South Bay team. Linda and I actually spoke at that, at the end of the march at a rally.
I was really nervous to do that because it was a much bigger audience. That's another time where I feel like I pushed myself to do something that was very much out of my comfort zone. In the end I'm really glad that I did it.
We're focusing on the local level first, because it [00:17:00] is here that we get to work face to face with other people in our own community, while building relationships with our local leaders. We are asking, what can our community, our city, our county do to be part of the climate solution?
That's just an example of how the Mothers Out Front model helps to stretch us and grow us. We received so much support and encouragement to do all of those talks. When I was preparing to give my first personal statement at the city council meeting, Vanessa worked with me one on one on that, and helped me find what parts of my story might be the most helpful to share. I think she really helped me see how really making it personal was what was going to get the attention of the city council members.
I feel like she really helped me learn how to tell my story in kind of a vulnerable way that would make me more [00:18:00] relatable to the city council members. Whereas before that I think I wanted to not get teary eyed. I wanted to keep my composure and keep it a little bit professional and at a distance. But it was making myself real to the people who were listening that was powerful.
Dave Damm-Luhr: A vote by San Jose city council was unanimous in favor.
Curt Newton: Let's turn our attention from these local campaigns and ask, how does Mothers Out Front connect the local to the national efforts? To keep growing, expanding, and evolving?
Dave Damm-Luhr: No handbook that you can pull off the shelf and say, "Okay. Now we're at step two".
Vanessa Rule: I'm trying to write it, but it keeps getting rewritten. You know? It's like, and every time we move to a new state or a new community it's like, somebody ... People are bringing their resources and their life experiences and different insights that enrich our approach. It's constantly evolving.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Vanessa Rule: Yeah, one of the challenges is capturing those learnings, and then figuring out, what can you codify, and going back to expansion, [00:19:00] replicate? What do you need to sort of honor as ... I think it's more the process as opposed to the content.
One of the things I love about Mothers Out Front is that we're going to scale, but in a way that truly honors local decision making, and trusting that people have the resources and the knowledge that they need to get there. The way we work is we sort of set, there's a goal. Which is, we want to transition off fossil fuels as swiftly, justly, and completely as possible. Within that, how you get there is going to really look different based on the local conditions.
One of the things that I've been doing on expansion has been to bring mothers from different states together, right? To talk about those stories and having this vision of, "Oh. They did this in this place. That's very inspiring and emboldening to mothers who are starting to do it somewhere else". Definitely again bringing people together and creating that cross realization.
We have a lot [00:20:00] of group meetings where team leaders come together every couple weeks or once a month to share their stories. When a team sort of locks into something and figures something out it's like, "What did you do there?". Then other people start replicating it. Sort of self organizing. Every team is sort of an incubator, and they all have different strengths. Every Mothers Out Front team innovates in some way, and in a way that other teams can just pick up on.
Curt Newton: I'm glad to learn here how Mothers Out Front is retaining the focus on connection and continuous learning as they expand. I bet that could be easy to lose sight of if they're not careful.
Dave Damm-Luhr: How about if we bring the conversation back home, literally, to the family, the parent. That most intimate of bonds. Let's acknowledge that common foundation as we hear Stacy's story.
Stacy Levy: For me when I had my first son, and he's this little little baby, I think just like any [00:21:00] parent, when I saw him my heart burst and I had just way more love than I ever knew I could have for another being. I knew I would do anything to protect him. I still feel that way now. As he grew up I got very involved in different, like how can I keep him healthy? How can I make sure he has a good education? How can I help him have a balanced life? All those different things. I spent a lot of energy as a parent looking out for my kids in those ways.
I've always cared about the planet and climate, but I really wasn't that active in it. It was a bit intimidating. It was kind of overwhelming, really. It just felt like way too complex of a problem. I tried to not drive very much. I tried to make good choices in my individual life. But I was a little bit overwhelmed to get involved myself. I guess as time went on I just [00:22:00] started getting more worried about it and realized, "This is a part of keeping my kids healthy. This is a part of their future. If I'm willing to spend so much time cooking them healthy food, I can make time to get active and do something".
Curt Newton: We should keep in mind with our focus this season on learning, parents are the most powerful teachers for their kids. Those kids are learning all the time. More from what we do and how we live than what we say. Do you think about how what you've been going through is teaching your kids important lessons?
Stacy Levy: I do sometimes. I do. Also there's times where it's really tricky for me to fit this into my life. I need to pull on different strings to keep me involved in it at times, and that's one of them is, I want to model for them. One, that I care about them and their future enough to do this. But two, [00:23:00] that getting involved is not only important for me as an individual and it fills me up, but it also is a way of giving back to our future.
Dave Damm-Luhr: What is it that makes mothers in particular so good at this?
Vanessa Rule: Love, right? Commitment. This truly is, you feel it in your gut. I mean, you can go to sleep at night thinking about your children. There's a level of commitment in that sense of, I've heard a number of mothers say to me that they got to a point where they realized that nobody else was going to fix this and that they had to do it. Who else is going to do it? Nobody's going to do it, and so they just have to go in there. There's a fearlessness when you're fighting for somebody else, that I think allows you to take some incredible risks.
Then there's the whole modeling. This involves going out of your comfort zone to some extent, which is incredibly rewarding because you find out you can do these things and you learn. It's a transformational experience. But [00:24:00] what gives people the courage is the love they have for their kids.
Curt Newton: When we take a step back and look at how these women have been able to accomplish so much, it seems to me that it comes down to their awesome ability to create this circle that is supportive for everyone in so many ways. Where the members are connecting deeply around learning, growth, and a shared love for their children.
Dave Damm-Luhr: This is really the crux of what we were talking about at the beginning of the episode. The foundation comes from these very human instincts that hold communities together.
Curt Newton: Like, "Don't go it alone, but bring friends".
Dave Damm-Luhr: Tell your stories.
Curt Newton: Come together around universally shared concerns, like concern for our kids and for future generations.
Dave Damm-Luhr: These may be the things we used to know but forgot. That foundation is the thing that can be missing in some climate action groups.
Vanessa Rule: The first step is to create community so [00:25:00] they're not feeling alone, and realizing that they can work together to affect change. But then there are tried and true organizing skills that social movements have drawn on for the history of time. Like knowing how to have a one to one conversation with somebody to find out what they're interested in, and see sort of where your interests match and how to get them involved. Learning how to tell your story. Learning how to develop a strategy. Learning how to organize a rally.
There's a lot of learning and there's a lot of risk taking I think for a lot of people as they grow. One of the most gratifying things about this work to me is seeing people's lives transform through the work that they do together. Both in terms of realizing that they don't have to figure this out alone, and that there's incredible hope in working together. But also in discovering things they never thought they could do. The number of people who said, "I never thought I could do public speaking. I never thought I'd go and talk to my elected officials. I never thought [00:26:00] I'd be running a training, or building a team".
I've had members of Mothers Out Front say to me, "This has been like going back to college", or, "It's opened up these pathways that I didn't even know were possible".
Curt Newton: So Dave, you and me. Two guys.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Right.
Curt Newton: Hosting a climate podcast.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Yeah.
Curt Newton: Where we're hearing these amazing stories about how these women have really kind of broken through in their organizing model.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Right. Quite honestly and frankly, when I think about the groups I've been part of where they haven't really had a relationship piece and they haven't really focused on learning a community, uh-oh, mostly driven by men.
Curt Newton: Yeah.
Dave Damm-Luhr: Women were not in the lead.
Curt Newton: Yeah. When I think about high impact learning to change, I want to just pull all the men that I know together and get them thinking about this. What would it mean to really [00:27:00] take in some of the lessons from the Mothers Out Front model, and apply that in our own lives. Also, and equally importantly, learn to back the leadership and the thinking of these folks.
I have a feeling we'll come back to this as we wrap up the season. But our conversations bring to mind this thing that I read about the climate scientist Sarah Myhre. Back in December 2017 at an American Geophysical Union meeting, there was a panel discussion. An audience member asked this question. "You show that we've got to drop all the way to zero fossil fuel use within the next few decades, but I have a hard time even imagining a world without fossil fuels".
Well, Sarah Myhre who was one of the panelists leaned over the microphone and really dropped it. She says, "Imagine a world where women are in charge, and then you'll imagine a world [00:28:00] without fossil fuels". There's an imagination that maybe we've been lacking, and perhaps from the example of Mothers Out Front we can get tapped into that imagination.
That's it for this episode of the Climate Conversations podcast. Thank-you so much for joining us. Please follow us, send us your feedback on Twitter and Facebook. Check out the show notes that you'll find on the Climate X website. Until next time, bye.
Mothers Out Front: http://mothersoutfront.org
"South Bay Mother's Out Front Community Choice Energy Campaign": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id33I5kYF8o
Climate Conversations S3E1: The Psychology of Learning to Change, a Conversation with Renee Lertzman - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e1-psychology-learning-change-conversation-renee-lertzman
Climate Conversations S3E2: Free Choice Learning in Universities with MIT Terrascope - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e2-free-choice-learning-universities-mit-terrascope
Climate Conversations S3E3: Learning in Community with Mothers Out Front - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e3-learning-community-mothers-out-front
Climate Conversations S3E4: NextGen Learning to Change with Boston Latin School YouthCAN - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e4-nextgen-learning-change-boston-latin-school-youthcan
Climate Conversations S3E5: More with MIT Terrascope Lecturer Dr. Ari Epstein - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e5-more-mit-terrascope-lecturer-dr-ari-epstein
Climate Conversations S3E6: The Making of a Climate Scientist with MIT Terrascope Alumna Lauren Kuntz - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e6-making-climate-scientist-mit-terrascope-alumna-lauren-kuntz
Climate Conversations S3E7: Building a Community with Mothers Out Front Co-Founder Vanessa Rule - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e7-building-community-mothers-out-front-co-founder-vanessa-rule
Climate Conversations S3E8: Moving into Action with Mothers Out Front Chapter Leader Stacy Levy - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e8-moving-action-mothers-out-front-chapter-leader-stacy-levy
Climate Conversations S3E9: Teaching Climate Change with Boston Latin School YouthCAN Teacher Cate Arnold - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e9-teaching-climate-change-boston-latin-school-youthcan-teacher
Climate Conversations S3E10: From Learning to Teaching with Boston Latin School & YouthCAN Alumna Rebecca Park - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e10-learning-teaching-boston-latin-school-youthcan-alumna-rebecca
Climate Conversations S3E11: Learning to Lead with Boston Latin School YouthCAN Co-President Susan Tang - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e11-learning-lead-boston-latin-school-youthcan-co-president-susan
Climate Conversations S3E12: Turning Learning into Habits with Quinton Zondervan, City Counselor - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e12-turning-learning-habits-quinton-zondervan-city-counselor
Climate Conversations S3E13: Season 3 Wrap-up: What Have We Learned About Learning To Change? - https://climate.mit.edu/podcasts/climate-conversations-s3e13-season-3-wrap-what-have-we-learned-about-learning-change